As one of our designated loops for the Stage Race, it was mentioned to me, perhaps a group road race format would work. Seeing how we have gentlemans rules its a topic for discussion.

Format planned: Time trial style, everyone staggered starts and pedals until done.

Proposed format for discussion: Group ride. Do the loop together as a group. Members who get dropped are on their own, but allowed to draft back to main group (if they can) attacks and break aways can happen any time.


Pros: probably a hell of alot of fun.

Cons: time would actually be more as the beginning flat stages we would all be together going steady until the hills.


Discuss.

The new idea sounds fun for a change.

I'd rather not see a group format, for any of the race stages, this would be simply unfair for others doing it not with the group. I don't buy for a second the group time would be "slower". Either way, times would not be apples to apples.

This format would be fun as a group ride for another time however.

Ryan

I guarantee it would be slower. Who the heck would pull you to the hills fast knowing they would get dropped, not I. I will sit on wheels. preferably yours.



I don't care either way, but it does sound fun.


Apples to Apples. riding in a time trial format with staggered times gives you a huge advantage over doing it solo on Sunday morning, too.

Rockboy does have a point about others not riding with the group tonight.

Perhaps I'm the exception to the rule, but I've never had trouble pushing myself just as hard, if not harder solo. As a matter of fact I think sometimes there is a mental advantage to going solo verses chasing that person "you can't beat", but I hear you PJ.

Remember thou, the peloton nearly always catches the break away, so I still don't buy the "slower" argument. Also I think there is an advantage to time trial style for shorter distances like the sprint stage or the hills, but over 30 miles I really don't see the advantage, not for me at least, I'm not that strong of a rider, yet.

That's my 2 cents, let's hear from some who won't be part of the group tonight?

Ryan

Do the group ride, then I will do my ride. If my time is better, then its fine with me!! :D

-- Ken
 
"If you brake, you don't win." Racer Mario Cipollini

The group ride isn't a team ride, we are all individuals trying to sneak a victory, the slower the group ride goes the better chance of having a time comparable to the winner. That said, too slow and the solo guys will have a great chance. The scary part is if its too slow, you have a week to ride it again for a better time.

We should probably keep it the same for now, for consistancy sake. We can rediscuss as a probability for the Lear Hill loop, with advanced warning.

I am inclined to throw some numbers and data at you all, but I do not have time to do that right now ... so I will just give you a sense of my observations over the years.

Riding with a group in a racing format always raises the average speed over going solo by at least 2mph. This does not occur at the expense of the riders in the group ... because they all enjoy significant recovery while they are drafting the other riders.

Drafting matters at all speeds ... even going up hill ... and riding in a group helps add variety to how you are riding which enables recovery.

The bottom line is that ... there is no way we would go slower as a group than we would as individuals in time-trial format.

Time Trialing is my least favorite racing format. I much prefer racing as a group, going fast, and being part of the chess match associated with racing as a peleton.

Thank you Chris. That was generally my sense but it's good to hear it from a far more experienced rider.

I think in future "Stage Races" it would be fun to run at least some if not all stages as required group rides (i.e. you're out of the race if you don't show for the required group stages). This way you can mix it up.

In my opinion it's too late for this race, or at least this stage of the race (Springfield Loop) to change the rules now.

The more I think about it the more I think a mix of required group stages and individual stages is the way to go in the future.

In the time-trial or peleton format, direction of travel matters. I am pretty confident that, if riding alone on a wind-neutral day, I could ride the course faster in a specific direction (by at least a minute) ... but if I was racing in a peleton on that same day, I would prefer to go the other way.

One thing I think is a liability in the *race any time you want format* is that there will likely be a day between today and next Tuesday where there are wind-favorable conditions for the loop. I think these could account for as much as a 3 minute improvement in someone's time.

On an unrelated note ... if you want a true *sprinters* competition, you need to move away from the *how fast can you ride one mile during the Rt 10 TT* measure. This is actually a *pursuit* event. The *sprinters stage* should not be part of a TT ... they are very different disciplines. I have some ideas about how you could do a sprinters stage ... all of which involve riding together.

Interesting Chris. I'd love to know which way you think would be better individually and in a group and why?

PJ, are we still doing a fastest mile on the rt 10 sprint/TT, I thought you were making it an overall time for this stage and eliminating the 1 mile best time portion?

There is no longer a mile in the format for a sprinter, just the 9 miles back from route 10.

I want to test Chris's theory, as an inexperienced road racer, I do think the group time will still be slower in this format and at this distance. If we were all working together of course it will be faster, and if I can sit on Chris wheel the whole way I would be faster, as he would be faster than I. But would Chris be willing to let me sit on his wheel so I can get near the same time as him, when in reality, I would be 2-3 minutes slower?


There are no teams in this format (unless there are already secret alliances)

I can't believe how stinking fun this is, talking about this stuff. Who knew middle age men can have so much fun with 2 tires, a computer whiz, and some ferrari jelly beans.

PJ

Who's middle aged here? Not me!

According to Wikipedia Middle Age is;

Middle age is a non-specific stage in life when one is neither young nor old, but somewhere in between.

This is considered by some to be the ages around, or older than, the middle of the average life span of human beings. In developed societies, people are generally considered to be middle aged between the ages of 35 and 55.


In many Western societies this is often seen to be the period of life in which one is expected to have settled down in terms of their sense of identity and place in the world, be raising a family (if their lifestyle includes this pursuit), and have established career stabilty. It is also a period often associated with the potential onset of mid-life crises. Many women begin going through menopause during middle age.

There is often claimed to be considerable prejudice against older people in employment and in the media. This is based on the claim that, given a choice between an old person and young person (often with less ability), the young person will disproportionately often be chosen by an employer. The media focus much less on older people because younger people are influenced more easily, and will most likely remain influenced for the rest of their lives, for instance choosing brands they are familiar with.

Some people are challenging the concept that middle age is something to dread. They assert that with the right attitude and careful planning, middle age can be truly a person's best years. Those age-positive groups range from advocacy groups such as the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) to purely social clubs like the Red Hat Society.


This is great news I am sitll middle age for 6 more months.

Ryan: After this week is over I will share my reasoning of which way I would go and why.

PJ: My goals in road racing are twofold ... to enjoy the tactics associated with trying to either stay with or get away from the group and to have the best finish I can. Up until today, my goal for tonight was going to be to help drive the pace of the lead group ... but to keep it together so that we could maximize our time advantage over anyone who *came off* along the way. That would have been fun. Now I have to prepare myself for the agony of trying to go as fast as possible for 30 miles ... something I am not very enthused about and do not consider very much fun.

In road racing we call the whittling of the lead group as *making the selection*. At some point the leading group realizes that they are better to transition from trying to *shed riders* to working together. FYI - in the road races where I have had the misfortune of getting dropped I have always found that the speed I can sustain by myself drops to about 5 mph below the pace of the field!!!

Some of you have tried points racing at Claremont (and most of you have tried to forget the experience ... but that is the topic for another day). Even though there are only sprints every 5 laps, the races are very dynamic ... and the pace is pretty fast (typically 25-26mph for the A race). If PJ's argument held in this instance ... everyone would just ride around at a leasurely pace waiting for the next sprint ... but that is not what happens at all. You always have to be ready for an attack!

Guess I must be the computer whiz, since I have another 11 years before I am middle aged.
 
"If you brake, you don't win." Racer Mario Cipollini

Chris, how long did it take you to learn all the ins and outs of road racing? Is it something you just learned over time from riding, or was it something you learned from a High school racing team?? I'm interested.
 
"If you brake, you don't win." Racer Mario Cipollini

D** Wikipedia! You're only as old as you feel, and I plan on feeling young forever!

Ken,

I have learned about the tactics of road racing by experience. I started road racing in 1984. Over the past 22 years, I have competed in at least 400 road cycling races. To date so far this year, I have competed in 25 USCF sanctioned weekend events, 8 times at Claremont speedway on Tuesday nights, and 14 times at NHIS on Thursday nights. I also manage a Masters Racing Team of 27 members (Sunapee/S&W Racing Team). On the racing circuit, I am kind of know as a guy who is smarter than he is strong with a respectable sprint. I have always enjoyed the cerebral aspects of racing at least as much as the physical parts.

Chris

I am pleased that I had the forsight to claim that riding as a group raises average speeds by at least 2mph.

Tonight Dan and I managed to complete the (Revised) Springfield Loop with an average speed of 23.43mph ... while Dan's average speed alone on the Springfield Loop was 21.16mph earlier this year.

Words cannot express how much more fun I think the ride was tonight than it would have been under the TT format ... and I think everyone who participated would agree with that!!!

Perhaps the best argument I can make to support the *ride as a peleton* format for the road stages (except for the stages designated as TT's) is that drafting is important component of the dynamics of road racing ... as much as roots and rocks are an important part of mountain bike stages. It makes sense to me that our racing formats would celebrate the diversity of the different types of bicycle racing!

Ok, Chris I'll buy into your argument:
[quote:9265887859]Perhaps the best argument I can make to support the *ride as a peloton* format for the road stages (except for the stages designated as TT's) is that drafting is important component of the dynamics of road racing ... as much as roots and rocks are an important part of mountain bike stages.[/quote:9265887859]

That said you want to pull Ken and I around the Loop tomorrow early afternoon like you did the guys tonight to demonstrate your argument? I'd love to see your road skills first hand.

Ryan

Ryan,

I am racing at New Hampshire International Speedway tomorrow night (on my bike) ... otherwise I would have been happy to join you.

Have Fun,
Chris

Dan and I proved today that even a pair of riders, even one at my level, can go faster than a single rider at a higher level. Ryan broke away at the beginning of 114 and was out of sight for awhile. Even with mostly all downhill, Dan and I caught up to him right at Rt. 10. He could not have been happier to see us.
 
"If you brake, you don't win." Racer Mario Cipollini